Subject: Iserbyt Radio Interview Amarillo, TX

On Sunday, May 20, 2001 at 8:30 p.m. Paul Anderson, radio talk show host, The Source, KJRT, 7208 Old Kent Road, Amarillo, TX 79109, 800-525-5737, interviewed Charlotte Thomson Iserbyt, the author of The Deliberate Dumbing Down of America...A Chronological Paper Trail.

Mr. Anderson commenced the interview as follows:

P.A. I am Paul Anderson. You are listening to The Source. We are beginning to talk with Charlotte Iserbyt...we are going to talk about her book "The Deliberate Dumbing Down of America...A Chronological Paper Trail" and there are going to be some real heated issues we are going to face here. Charlotte worked from 1981-1982 in the U.S. Department of Education as a Senior Policy Advisor in its Office of Educational Research and Improvement where she first blew the whistle on a major technology initiative. It is a pleasure to have you with us.

C.I. Thank you. I very much appreciate being invited on your show. I am looking forward to it .

P.A. You have put together an awesomely thick book. How long did it take you to research and put all this together?

C.I. I started in 1972. I went all the way to 1990 putting all the research together and then I decided to sort it out chronologicaly because I truly didn't want to accept the conclusion that I was coming to: that the dumbing down was deliberate. It made me sick to think that that could be true. So, I thought, well I am going to put it together chronologically to see what it looks like from that vantage point...which I did, and then I could see the picture was very clear that this has been a deliberate effort to take our country - to put it under a planned economy.

P.A. I want to talk about that because there are so many conspiracy theorists out there. Do you feel like you fall into that camp or that you are just actually alerting us to something that is going on that is a real tragedy for America.

C.I. The American people have to be informed that this was deliberate because if they don't know that, they don't know where to look to fight it. It was deliberate. There is absolutely no question in my mind. I would lay my life on the line on that statement.

P.A. Let me interject here... you said when you were doing that study it was hard for you to accept the fact that it was deliberate. What was it that you found that made you realize that there was a concerted effort to dumb down America.

C.I. I was collecting research and most of the research I had were government documents or old is a very important book that Carnegie Corporation published in 1934. That is probably the most important one of all to discuss since we don't have much time to go into all my research. That book was given to me by a very brilliant fellow who was in Naval Intelligence. He gave us his library. Carnegie Corporation commissioned the American Historical Association to do the research over a period of four years and the result was the AHA's "Conclusions and Recomendations for the Social Studies". The recommendation in the book was to use the schools to change America from a free, individualist economy to a planned, socialist, collectivist economy in the New World Order.

P.A. Why would an American corporation do something like that?

C.I. Well, I don't believe it (Carnegie) is the only one. The tax-exempt foundations have been notorious for having spent taxpayers' money through the years to implement a socialist agenda for this country. People have got to get it through their heads that big corporations, multinational corporations, etc. benefit from socialism, believe it or not, because they don't have to compete. I remember David Rockefeller, about twenty years ago, making a comment about Communist Angola. The press asked him "Why would you be interested in setting up an oil refinery in Angola?" He responded, if I recall correctly: "Because we find it much easier to deal with centralized governments and economies... We don't care what their politics are." So we have to get over the idea that the major corpoirations are pure capitalists -- especially when we are dealing with multinational corporations which have absolutely no allegiance to any particular country.

And so this goes far back to 1934... at that time, in the twenties and thirties, you had many educators and business people going back and forth to the Soviet Union and they were in great admiration of this communist system when it was young, and they came back with these ideas and they wanted to implement that system here. And so Carnegie Corporation was deeply involved. This little book is extraordinary since it lists all the major players ... and after that recommendation was made, Carnegie Corporation consistently without any breaks in time -- I have a chronological record as I said -- that is what makes it so interesting - put money into all the major aspects of education which have brought us to right now where we are implementing the Cuban school-to-work agenda in this country and the politically-correct agenda as well. Carnegie Corporation put money into the Educational Testing Service (Princeton, N.J.) , the Education Commission of the States, and it, as well as Ronald Reagan, signed agreements with the Soviet Union in 1985 which virtually merged our two education systems and that are still in effect even though people thought the Soviet Union broke up. These agreements are still in effect.

P.A. When that happened did Ronald Reagan sign those agreements to improve the Soviet education system and it just had this reverse effect on us?

C.I. Oh, no, no. I don't believe so. I've got the documents. It was not a matter of improving the system. It was probably pretty much the result of what Norman Dodd spoke about when he was the Research Director for the Reece Committee in 1953, the Congressional committee which investigated the tax-exempt foundations. Norman Dodd was told by the President of the Ford Foundation that the foundations got their instructions from the White House, and at that time... in 1953 it was Eisenhower who was President and who subsequently signed the first agreements with the Soviet Union in 1958...he was told that they got their instructions from the White House and the instructions were that they should use their grant-making (money) so that the United States could be comfortably merged with the Soviet Union. And your audience out there is probably saying "But the Soviet Union is dead." That doesn't make a bit of difference. It is dead on paper but the system, the communist system, is very much alive in this country, and it is being implemented right now in our school systems through the United States Department of Education.

P.A. I agree with that because socialism is really alive and well in the major universities in the United States.

C.I. That is right. It is very, very clear. It is very sad and I don't like having to tell people this and I particularly don't like to have to put alot of the blame at the feet of the Bush family, but I am afraid I have to...because... well, Reagan really started it... well, Reagan did not actually... Carnegie Corp. started it in 1934. Then this left-wing agenda was followed all the way through...when we became a member of the UN. The curriculum we are looking at today is an international curriculum. It is not just a national curriculum. Some people are saying "We don't want a national curriculum." Actually we have an international curriculum. I say "Forget it, folks...we are beyond that." We are implementing an international curriculum. The Direct Instruction [to teach reading], the Effective School Research and's in Hong Kong, it's in South's everywhere. The school- to- work agenda is everywhere. The school choice agenda ...choice, believe it or not, is being implemented in Russia. Because the Russians always called for a partnership between industry and government. That is part of the Communist Manifesto. So, we are implementing that right here and I always say the best way to find out what's going on in Houston, or Augusta, Maine, or Sacramento, California, if you really want to know what they are doing in education, is to just go to Cuba for a few months.

P.A. Well, we are giving away a free copy of The Deliberate Dumbing Down of America, years of research that she put together. Paul gave out his telephone no. and website for people to call in. He then asked Charlotte to give out her website,, and she referred people to their favorite bookstores or to Barnes& or

C.I. I would like to point out that the book is set up in 8-1/2"x11" format so that you can copy anything you want in that book. The book contains major verbatim documents, not much editioralizing by me...sometimes I have to define terms or try to explain things to people. Basically my feeling was I didn't want ever again to have someone tell me that something was my opinion, and I didn't want American parents and teachers or any of us ever again to be told by the major change agents...I would like to talk about change agents later too... that "it is our opinion." So I decided I am just going to put all the documents in one book...the documents that prove that our tax money has been used not only to deliberately dumb down our children but to create moral chaos through all the values clarification (destroying) programs that have been implemented...and it was very, very clever, and people ask why? I say "Why not?" It is alot easier to take a country that way, gradually, like the frog in cold water, heat the water up and the frog is dead, using the dumbing down of our children and the creating of moral chaos through survival games where our children are required to decide who is going to live and who is going to die, etc., etc. That is the easiest way to take a country and they knew they could do that because if you don't know what your country is all about and you don't know your Constitution or Bill of Rights, or if you don't know what form of government you have, and you don't know we have a special, special form of government, you are not going to know when they take it (your form of government) away from you. And that is exactly where we are right now. And it is not the teachers' fault and it is not the parents' fault either. I believe it was a very diabolical plan and I would like to get into explaining that later on.

P.A. Let me ask you this question. When you say it is not the teachers' fault, in some cases I believe you are correct. But I feel like teachers in some aspects are a big stumbling block to alerting people. Because one teacher told me that the TASS testing that is used to evaluate students...

C.I. Well, you have yours in Texas, we ours in Maine. As far as I am concerned, I would like to see them stop all testing...every single test that is being discussed.

P.A. Let me tell you what she said. How can there be a dumbing down of American students when the tests that were being used for seventh graders are now being used for fifth graders, etc. How can anyone say it is a dumbing down? Because in her eyes there has been an improvement if fifth graders are as smart as the seventh graders used to be.

C.I. Re the dumbing down, she is incorrect on that, and if you get The New York Times today, you will see an extraordinary article...think it is the Business Section...Sunday... re the assessments across the country...and how they are all being criticized regarding all the flaws in them, with mistakes in the questions. This is Texas as well as Maine or Arizona. Big, big article, and I looked at it and I contacted my education research friends and I asked "Am I paranoid since I believe that "they" are simply creating this enormous problem with the assessments and all other tests so that they can go towards the national assessment which is the National Assessment for Educational Progress, which will be the one test that George Bush has been calling for - the one test - we won't have to worry about all the private companies doing tests. The NAEP, by the way, was funded by Carnegie Corp. And so if I were the average person out there listening to all this chitchat about assessments and tests, I would just "close the book and say'enough of this discussion.'" This is purposeful to create a tremendous climate of chaos in testing so that the United States Department of Education, which George Bush...(that is his baby...he loves the U.S. Dept. of Education) that he can have his national
test which is what he has called for. And all the other private testing companies can drop out, and we can have a national test just like all the other countries which are members of the United Nations, because this is a UN plan. The curriculum is UN anyway and that is where we are at and I am very sorry to have to tell people that. It is sad that George W. Bush, Jr. wasn't able to separate himself from his father's agenda in education. His father's agenda was... and it's in the Congressional Record... it called for school-to-work. He called for the socialist apprenticeship system which denies our children upward mobility, i.e., identifies them in fourth grade what they are going to do for the rest of their lives, and I am sorry to have to say this when I am on a Texas station, but I knew this was going to happen. Many of us did and we voted for Buchanan and it is happening, and now we have the Faith-Based initiative which is even worse, if anything, because that could be the federal takeover of the churches.

P.A. Let me offer this...The reason I am letting you say all that is because I know that there is a deliberate dumbing down of America and I wanted people to be alerted to it and I voted for Bush because I felt like there were only two who could possibly get the Presidency, Gore or Bush, and he is doing some really good things, but he is not a perfect person and there is an agenda there that I want to see corrected, and that is why I want people to be aware of this.
With your information what can the average parent out there, the average citizen/parent/teacher...what can we do to start changing this?

C.I. Well, I think nothing is going to can only get worse and our form of government is being changed through the schools. When you change our economic system which is what Congress did in the nineties and former President Bush was supportive of this as well in the early nineties...Bill Clinton on George Bush, Jr. on board changing our economic system to a planned economy, the global economy...Now as long as we hold onto the U.S. Department of Education, which is in bed with the U.S. Dept. of Labor, we can fully expect to loose our free system of government. And I am not kidding. That is why I say the U.S. Department of Education MUST be abolished. And anything less than that...bringing education back to the local level, NOT state level, will not accomplish the objective of holding onto our freedom. When I read that the Republican leadership...Bob Novak wrote that article, incredible article, about the excuses made by the Republican leadership, why they allowed George Bush to go along with this education agenda, they said something to the effect "We always knew George would go left on education."

P.A.: Let me interrupt you just a minute.. l I know you have some real passion in that area but what I want you to tell us is what we can do to actually change it. I note you are throwing some pretty good punches at George W. Bush.

C.I. Well, I sure am because he is responsible for this whole agenda and I am very upset and would just like to say this -- just because he comes from Texas I am not going to hold back. I want to say that in 1932 a book was written by William Foster, the Chairman of the Communist Party, U.S.A. Every single thing that he recommended, including a United States Department of Education and nationalization of education, etc. has taken place in the schools of America. And the fact that George Bush wanted to hold onto the U.S. Dept. of Education of Education is proof that he is implementing this agenda. And, as I said before, the Faith-Based Agenda...

P.A. Interrupted

C.I. Okay

P.A. I understand your passion and I agree with you that there is a communist and socialist world view that has been implemented in our public schools, but instead of turning this into a political thing about how wrong the Republicans are or how George W. Bush... and I am not defending him because he is a fellow Texan, but because there are some good things he is doing...

C.I. What is he doing that is more important than education?

P.A. Now listen, what I am talking about is overall and the reason I have you on is because I want you to tell us what we can do to change this. It is one thing to beat up on the administration for what they are doing. That's fine, and I have allowed you to do that, but what is there that we can do now?

C.I. OK. Well, I just said it. I think I said it three or four times.

P.A. Well, you have not made it clear because I haven't got it.

C.I. The only solution to the problem with American education is for every single Texan who is listening to this and all their friends, etc....they should get the book and find out that it was deliberate first of all, and all the people that were involved in it. They will be shocked. But get the book and contact their congressmen and senators and tell them if they don't get rid of the U.S. Department of Education, the unconstitutional Department of Education that Ronald Reagan promised to get rid of, they will not be in office next time around. It is very serious... the U.S. Department of Education...I was there.

P.A. I agree with you. I think we ought to get rid of it. You were a part of it, and you should know.

C.I. I sure do know. It is a Marxist factory.

P.A. And I agree.

C.I. Then why is it that the Republican leadership thought that the other issues were worth (fighting for), but not education? That quote by Robert Novak, words to the effect "We knew George would go left on education and if we could get him to be pro-defense and pro-life we were going to give up on that one. Well, you know what I say to that? We wouldn't need to worry about pro-life and pro-defense if our children hadn't been educated to favor abortion and to favor disarmament in the schools.

P.A. Now I agree with that. Because of the fact that if you get them when they are young...that is the whole principal of communism and any other ideology that wants to undermine the culture of a society. And I agree that the best way to undermine America is to destroy its youth and the way they think, and to destroy absolutes, so I agree that education is of utmost importance. So what I am saying is...getting the book and being informed, getting rid of the NEA and the Department of Education...what can we start doing? Before we do that I have a question from a caller who called in some time ago - we have been going at this pretty passionately and I want to make sure that Coyce Wilkinson who called in gets his question answered.

Coyce Wilkinson's question: Does the Carnegie Foundation for the Advancement of Teaching own the College Board out of Princeton, N.J?

C.I. Yes, they do. They have been involved in the development of and put money into it...I believe they own it. Yes, the Educational Testing Service, the College Board, the National Assessment of Educational Progress (NAEP) and the Education Commission of the States and, of course, as the caller knows, it was the Carnegie Corporation that was the major player in the restructuring of our schools in the eighties and nineties and presently. David Hornbeck, William Spady - not Carnegie but he carried out the Carnegie Plan, Mr. Outcomes (Performance) Based Education... so I know that I sound very passionate about this but I will tell you something. I was in the Foreign Service for eighteen years and I lived all over the world and I know what it is like to live under socialism and communism, and I don't like this agenda of George Bush's. I especially don't like his Faith-Based Agenda and I don't like his School Choice Agenda, because when you give tax money to the churches or you give tax money to private education, that is exactly what happened in socialist/communist countries... then you are taken over by the government because of the money.

P.A. OK. That I agree with and your experience in that area makes you an authority on that. And I agree that the American capitalist, free market society and the Constitution under which we live is the greatest form of government in the world, and I want to preserve it just as much as you do.

C.I. I am sure you do, but it is very late -- it is darned late now-- that is why I PLEAD with people. Get the book. Use the book in any way you want. You can copy anything in it. Go to your elected officicals. Ask them "Don't you know what you did in the nineties when you merged the public and private sector and created partnerships? Don't you know what that is?" How could they have done that? Even the White House...Ronald Reagan...I was the liaison with the White House for Public/Private Partnerships...and I went over there. I said to this lovely lady there "I am not really highly educated, but please tell me what is going on here...what is Ronald Reagan doing merging the public and private sectors?" The best label you can give to that system is "corporate fascism." And that is what they have done. And that is what our conservatives in Congress have voted for. What has happened? Is the Deliberate Dumbing Down so complete that even our elected officials don't know what form of government we have?

P.A. Well now, that, that is could very well be that it is that complete. Let me pause for a moment because we have the winner of a promotional copy of your book. We had a number of people call in from all over. But the drawing was the very man who asked the question regarding the Carnegie Foundation for the Advancement of Teaching, Coyce Wilkinson.

C.I. Congratulations, good! I am thrilled. Hope he enjoys it.

P.A. For all the rest of you that were here in our listening area and outside in other states, Charlotte is going to give information on how they can buy the book.

C.I. They can go on my website which is good because it has the whole Preface in there which tells why I wrote the book. The website is:, and you can go on the Internet to Barnes& or, or to your local bookstore.

P.A. Very good. We appreciate your being our guest and I appreciate your passion and I hope you get this message out so we can start to increase the educational level of our people in returning us to our United States form of Government.

C.I. I appreciate your having me on. Ordinarily I would not be this concerned but I have been at this for thirty years, and I am beginning to be very, very concerned about the future for our children if we can't convince the Congress that they have made an enormous mistake.

P.A. Well, God bless you and keep up your work.


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